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Is Sexual Orientation Biological?Average Joe's Corner - Friday, June 27th, 2008 A recent study, "Gay Men, Straight Women Have Similar Brains," seems to provide evidence for a biological basis for homosexuality. Researchers found that gay men and straight women share similar brain traits, including size and the function of the amygdala, which is tied to emotion, anxiety, and aggression. According to one of the researchers, "The latest findings imply that 'human sexuality has neurobiological underpinnings,' the mechanisms of which are complex and 'require humbleness and restraint from quick judgments.'" Another article titled, "Same Sex Couples Common in the Wild," made headlines at the time of California's recent same-sex marriage ban overturn. A zoologist noted that same-sex coupling could be observed in at least 1,500 animal species. One potential conservative response is to wonder about the timing of such stories. The brain report came out on the same day that California's overturn took effect. With TV cameras capturing displays of affection and emotion, many religious conservatives see a complicit media rubbing it in the faces of "mean-spirited, intolerant, unenlightened zealots." Setting aside name-calling and agendas, what does this research—if it holds up—mean? We've broached the subject before in this forum (here and here), and many of your responses suggested that a genetic predisposition (for example, an alcohol, adultery, or pedophile gene) does not excuse one from immoral behavior. Since RTB bills itself as an organization that champions scientific testing, this data seems to present a test for a specific biblical text (or at least for most conservative Christians' interpretations of the text) that speaks negatively against homosexual behavior. In Romans 1:26-27 the Apostle Paul writes: Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. The Bible calls homosexuality unnatural, but it appears that some recent scientific studies call it natural. Does this research jeopardize biblical inerrancy? Have traditional conservative interpretations missed the mark? |
Comments
In addition to all the
In addition to all the arguments that 'even if there is a genetic connection, it is still morally wrong', there is another big problem. Those who believe into the genetic conditioning towards homosexuality typically also believe in evolution. But since homosexuals by definition do not 'reproduce their kind', having this gene means that evolution has picked you for extinction. It seems to me that belief in Darwinism and a genetic justification for homosexuality is incompatible.
I think many evolutionists
I think many evolutionists respond to this by saying that homosexuality is a combination of genes that are individually or in certain combinations very useful but when they come together produce the result of homosexuality. For instance: straight men with feminine traits do better with women.
Bob L Sturm what do you see
Bob L Sturm what do you see that is medieval ?
There are several key
There are several key factors not mentioned here.
First, did the researchers know who was and was not gay going into the project? If so, it is hard to make the case that this was totally unbiased. Similar studies have been proven flawed when researcher bias was uncovered.
Second, were there any same-gender cross comparisons? There will likely be many similarities as well as some degree of natural variance within everyone. Are these variations close to or far from the cross-gender comparisons?
Third, what is the degree of difference / similarity found? Were the measuements 1% different or 20% different between same sex gay/non-gay brains .
There are many other questions as well, some of which may be answered in scientific journals that cover the research in more detail. The point is that a general broad brush article can be very misleading.
Well, I am thoroughly
Well, I am thoroughly disgusted by these medieval comments.
I believe we are all
I believe we are all "preprogrammed." I can't remember this verse off the top of my head, but it talks about God knowing us while he formed us in the womb.
But, we still have a choice. Do we give in to our "preprogramming" or do we lean on God to do the right thing? Everybody has to bear his or her cross. Do we want to do what is right and glorify God or do we give in to our tendencies?
Daniel, Jesus said: "If you
Daniel,
Jesus said: "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." John 8:31-32
God fulfilled this promise to me more than I could have ever imagined and so I know that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah.
But you said: "you as well as everybody else, will repent and accept Christ (the real Christ)". It appears from your statement that you don't seem to be so sure of who the messiah is supposed to be.
You also quote from the OLD testament out of context. I may be a new christian but I know when something doesn't sound right in biblical exegesis.
I love science because it's a way of finding the truth about nature. That is why I come to the RTB website.
The truth about God is revealed in the Bible but reading it is not enough, it must be revealed to you in your heart by the Holy Spirit. You must want to know Him.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matthew 6:33
Joe, Thank you for that
Joe,
Thank you for that disclaimer. I can't tell you how much that means to me personally.
Tyler,
the peace we have as Christians is peace with God. Before that, we are enemies. By coming to Him in humble repentance (a change of mind about God), we gain peace and the peace is being reconciled by forgiveness and newness of life. It has nothing to do with feelings. I can have a bad feeling because I am suffering with something and still be at peace with God and know Him through it. Feelings can be extremely deceptive especially where it involves our physical bodies.
Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"
Hope that helps!
Vera
It's probably obvious to
It's probably obvious to all, but just in case, here's a disclaimer: The opinions expressed here belong to the authors and do not represent the beliefs of Reasons To Believe. I'd hate for someone to quote one of the comments here and say elsewhere that they read it on RTB's website.
Most all homosexuality is
Most all homosexuality is demonic. It happened to me when I was in college, though I ran away from it so that it didn't take hold--resist the devil and he will flee from you. That's what happened in mine and many other cases. Anytime you read that someone/homosexual fell in love immediately, it's a demon. No, that person probably did NOT invite that entity, just as in my case 30+ years ago, but demons don't ask when coming on a person.
There are other people who accept homosexuality, but in those situations I've not found any demonic activity, though it may come on them at a slower rate or not as obvious as it was in my case. Since demonic activity is spiritual it is electronic as spirits are a form of electrical energy. That spiritual energy from the demon will change the brain activity in the person controlled by the demon. So, the research these teams did about the brain are Biblical all the way and proves the Bible as being more correct than any other holy book. Let's get our stories staight on this homosexuality, please.
Clifford, One more time!!
Clifford, One more time!! Read Isaiah 26:9 just one more time. I never said that God does not hand out perfect justice. Judgement will set things right. You can either be judged now, in this life, or you will be judged at The Great White Thrown Lake of Fire Judgement. Either way, you as well as everybody else, will repent and accept Christ (the real Christ).
John 7:37-38
In the last day, that Great Day of The Feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of Living Water. (This is a prophecy for the time that all men will accept Christ’s invitation to join Him in the kingdom)
Why do I know this? What is Christ fulfilling here? (He will literally fulfill this in the end.)
Deut. 16:13-15
Thou shall observe the Feast of Tabernacles seven (number of perfection) days, after that you have gathered in your corn and your wine: And you shall Rejoice in Your Feast, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the widow, that are within your gates. (Sounds like everybody’s celebrating, not just the FirstFruits)
When did this take place?
Ex. 23:16
. . . and the feast of ingathering of the Fall Harvest, which is in the end.
Fall Harvest is larger and later than the Spring Harvest. Fall Harvest represents the majority being saved in the end of the ages (those judged in the LOF).
By the way, I care less than none about the fact that Christian homosexuals think God will condone their behavior.
(Read bibletruths.com) (and everything I wrote above.)
Daniel, Jesus said: "Come
Daniel,
Jesus said:
"Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" - Matt 11:28-30
That is the promise that the Lord Jesus gave us. And it is exactly what He delivered when I seriously went looking for Him for the first time in my life as an adult.
We are not saved by anything we have done. He saves us through His sovereign grace. But He is also a God of Justice who cannot countenance evil. That is why He sent His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to take away our sins.
We are born into this world unsure if there is a God. We will remain this way until the day we die, unless we acknowledge that we are filthy sinners and that we are accountable to a God.
But the Good News is that God has revealed Himself to us as a God who loves us very much and He has a plan of salvation for us. So even though we are sinners He is willing to take us back. All we need to do is humbly acknowledge that we need to be saved and that He does the saving.
When homosexuals say that they too will be saved they are saying that God will condone their sin just like a serial adulterer's sin. But a serial adulterer acknowledges that what he is doing is wrong whereas the homosexual is saying that God must have made him that way so its ok in the eyes of God. That denies the fall of man with Adam and diminishes the perfect justice of God.
If God deals in imperfect Justice then why did Jesus have to die? Jesus died and rose again so that the perfect justice of God is upheld and we can be reconciled with our loving Creator.
Taste the Lord and see that He is Good!
I find the last line of the
I find the last line of the Nat'l Geographic article rather interesting:
"The next big research question, Witelson said, is to determine whether these brain differences influence behavior."
Note the use of "to determine whether these brain differences influence behavior" instead of "to determine how these brain differences influence behavior."
Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but that seems to imply they're not confident enough to assert that their brain structure findings have anything to do with sexual behavior.
I'd be willing to bet if they studied effeminate men who aren't gay, they'd also find brain structure similarities with straight women...
A Bible key to sexual
A Bible key to sexual addictions of all kinds is John 8:34-36 "Whosoever committeth sin is the slave of sin. And the slave abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." In other words, anyone who acts out an obsession (in this case, “obsexxion”) becomes a slave to the compulsion. The cure is in the fact that the obsession/compuslion does not remain in the house (body) for ever - providing Jesus rules the body. When He sets you free you are totally free. You may then become addicted (“consecrated and devoted”) to the things of God – particularly to helping your fellow Christians.
I think studies concerning a
I think studies concerning a genetic origin to homosexuality is enlightening and informative, but I’m having a difficult time accepting the question to be relevant to the issue concerning the acceptance of homosexual behavior.
In my opinion, the more relevant question is this. Regardless of the possibility of a genetic basis to our desires and preferences, when is our behavior not a choice ?
Clifford, your god is more
Clifford, your god is more evil than all mankind put together. You draw false conclusions from John 14:6 and you obviously lack knowledge in the origins of the word hell. It's a miracle that most cannot see the truth in what I have shown above. Oh, just for the record:
Biological or not, I believe being gay is sinful and will be judged.
(not to be confused with the evil misunderstanding of people being thrown into some fabled hell for all eternity)
Also:
Adultry is sinful and will be judged.
Thinking about commiting adultry or having gay sex is a sin and will be judged.
Thinking that God will endlessly torture these sinners (for no redeeming value) for all eternity is a sin and will be judged.
There are many here who are
There are many here who are more versed in Scripture than I, so I'd like to pose a quick question; where in the Bible does it refer to this earthly peace (or peace of mind rather) and how is it that many non-Christians (for example Buddhist monks) are so much at peace?
If we go on the thread of feeling that peace, if a man feels most at peace with another man as his partner, it would seem that that would be God's reassurance to him (if, of course, we are treating peace as a 'reward' on Earth).
I respect that, Joe.
I respect that, Joe.
Daniel B. Jesus said: "I am
Daniel B.
Jesus said:
"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the father but by me" John 14:6
When you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, He gives you peace in YOUR heart. You have this peace because you KNOW that the Creator of the Universe has forgiven you of your sins. So now you put your complete trust in God.
Your life will continue to face the challenges that all humans face, but you will be able to meet those challenges because of this peace in your heart. It is a peace that passes all understanding. You have to experience it to understand it.
Jesus invites you to let Him into your heart. Because of our rebellious nature, we resist Him. But when we truly humble ourselves before Him in our hearts and minds and repent of our sins, He will simply rush into our heart.
If you are not saved you condemn yourself to Hell.
Sexual experience of any
Sexual experience of any kind undoubtedly alters the brain. Properly controlled research must study both heterosexual females and homosexual males who have had no sexual experience. Otherwise one cannot distinguish "nature" from "nurture". I suspect few if any virgin homosexuals can be found in the population. However, an important scientific study would collect reports from men who "identify with women" during adolescence (sometimes labeled "sissy boy syndrome") but whose initial sexual experience is in heterosexual, monogamous marriage. I predict this group to report totally satisfactory sex lives. Sexual preference is determined by sexual experience.
OK, a bit of logical fun: I
OK, a bit of logical fun: I find it interesting that [homosexuals] are quick to rely on animal behavior studies, but only include those discoveries that justify what they want. Not a few animal species rank males as alpha, and among these, they keep multiple females. So hey, let’s go get ‘em boys! Keep women in their place — in bed, ready for our needs. Oh, wait, gotta find one from the harem that’s in heat. So, only when her body’s ready.
On another rabbit trail: we raise birds (love birds mostly). The males, when no female is present, engages in “sex” with a fold in the rug; or the edge of the sofa. OK boys! Whatever feels good, do it! And, it doesn’t matter who’s watching or where you are! Biological sex is good!
Course, not a few male species hunt in packs (with the females). So come on boys, let’s group together and go grocery shopping! We can fight it out at the meat department. Hey — it’s in the genes.
Daniel, from your last post
Daniel, from your last post it looks like you are defending universalism. I'd rather not go there, nor to subjects like for whom did Christ die? They are worthy topics, but for another thread.
Clifford, I'll say it
Clifford, I'll say it again:
Isaiah 26:9
When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (that means everybody)
As you said, "God will 'only' (you can eliminate that unscriptural word ) save those who sincerely repent of their sins . . . ."
Sinners will learn this righteousness through judgement (Lake of Fire, not hell).
1 Cor. 3:15
If anyone’s work shall be burned up, he will forfeit it, yet he shall be saved, yet thus, as through fire
As far as your peace on Earth to the righteous:
Matt. 10:34-36
“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household”
John 16:2
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time comes that whosoever kills you will think that he does God service.
And here's yet, another quote from Jesus:
John 9:4
“I must work the works of Him that sent me”. . .
Who sent him? The Father.
What works did He send Him to do?
1 John 4-14
And we have seen and testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1 Tim 2:4
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior: Who will (thelo) have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (Thelemo means desire)
And if you don't think those scriptures are true and inspired from God then it is you, Clifford, who doesn't believe them.
And Vera, I never said a homosexual was born a homosexual. What I said is that God creates people who will at some point become homosexuals. Also, I never said that God was going to overlook anyone's sins, which are committed willingly (yet caused). What I said was (look above at Isaiah 26:9)
Your belief that God's creation of evil is limited to hurricanes and such involves leaving out 100s of scriptures.
II Sam. 12:11
. . . I will raise up evil against you out of your own house. . .
Isa. 54:16
I created the waster to destroy
Prov. 16:4
The Lord has made . . . the wicked for the day of evil.
Jer. 6:19
. . . Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people. . .
Psalm 105:25
He turned their heart to hate His people . . .
Jer. 18:11
Behold I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you. . .
Isa. 63:17
O Lord, why have You made us to err from Your ways. . .
Amos 3:6
. . . shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?
II Thes. 2:11
. . . God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
Cor. 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. . .
By the way, God creates beauty, ugliness, righteousness and evil (ra) as well as every other adjective. He created the nouns too.
Go to bibletruths.com
Daniel said, "And yes, God
Daniel said, "And yes, God creates evil. In other words, He creates people who will commit sins for portions or throughout their lives. So Who creates homosexuals (pedophiles, etc.)?"
Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]."
In Brown Driver Briggs this word ra is defined this way when it is an adjective. In context, evil is used as a noun here.
BDB Definition:
1) bad, evil (adjective)
1a) bad, disagreeable, malignant
1b) bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
1c) evil, displeasing
1d) bad (of its kind—land, water, etc)
1e) bad (of value)
1f) worse than, worst (comparison)
1g) sad, unhappy
1h) evil (hurtful)
1i) bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
1j) bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1j1) in general, of persons, of thoughts
1j2) deeds, actions
2) evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity (noun masculine)
2a) evil, distress, adversity
2b) evil, injury, wrong
2c) evil (ethical)
3) evil, misery, distress, injury (noun feminine)
3a) evil, misery, distress
3b) evil, injury, wrong
3c) evil (ethical)
Daniel's interpretation is incorrect. To suggest that a homosexual is born the way he is and that God is going to overlook his sin because he can't help being the way he is, is a ludicrous statement. If you look up the word "evil" that God created, you will see that it is things like hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, diseases, or things that would bring misery, distress or injury. God does not create sin. Sin is the breaking of the Law and disobedience. It is missing the mark.
Vera
Daniel B. It's interesting
Daniel B.
It's interesting that you quote from all over the Bible but nothing from Jesus himself.
God will only save those who sincerely repent of their sins and accept the sacrifice that Jesus, the spotless lamb of God, made on their behalf on the cross. And as proof of the believer's salvation, He gives them peace in this life, and after death, eternal life in His presence.
If God saved everyone on earth, then the sacrifice that Jesus made on the cross was in vain, and all His teachings would be false.
Any quotation from the Bible is ultimately meaningless without the Atonement.
By far the most important
By far the most important factor in determining sexual preference is previous sexual experience. Obviously, if one never has a homosexual experience, one never becomes a homosexual. It is almost impossible to discuss the origin of sexual preferences without using the word “orgasm”. In operant-conditioning terms, it is such a powerful reinforcing event that ANY preceding behaviors will increase in frequency. Any sexual behavior that does not lead to conception will tend to extinguish over succeeding generations: since homosexuals have fewer offspring than heterosexuals, homosexuality is unlikely to be inherited. Of course, there are wide individual differences and a myriad of predisposing factors. Nevertheless, even a single homosexual experience will markedly increase the probability of another homosexual experience. Thus the future frequency and kind of human sexual experience is mostly determined by past frequency and kind. It is not easy for convicted homosexual persons to become convicted heterosexuals but it is definitely possible. Testimonies abound. The process of sexual transformation is similar to that of recovery from drugs and other extreme obsessions and compulsions. It involves complete abstinence from all sex (including self-sex) for a significant period, followed by sex only in traditional, monogamous, heterosexual marriage. Secular fellowships (Sexaholics Anonymous) and Christian fellowships (Exodus International) follow similar programs of recovery. Interestingly, both use the word “lust” to describe the addiction. They also tend to report that ANY sex outside of monogamous, heterosexual marriage eventually leads to deviant sex. They also tend to agree that “feminine” looks, “sissy” behavior, and same-sex “attraction” do NOT cause homosexuality unless followed by homosexual experience.
And Joe, I apologize for
And Joe, I apologize for initially packaging you with dogmatic christianity.
About free will:
Jer 10:23
. . . . . I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jer. 13:23
Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil?
Rom. 2:4
“the goodness of God leads you to repentance”
Phil. 2:13
For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps. (We have plans, not God. He already knows.)
Pr. 20:24 Man’s steps are ordained by the Lord; how then can man understand his way?
And yes, God creates evil. In other words, He creates people who will commit sins for portions or throughout their lives. So Who creates homosexuals (pedophiles, etc.)?
Rom 11:8
God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day.
Ecc 7:13
Think of what God has done! If God makes something crooked, can you make it straight?
Rom. 9:18, 21
Therefore hath He mercy on whom he will hath mercy, and who he will he hardeneth. . . . . . .Hath not the Potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ex. 4:11
And the Lord said unto him, who hath made man’s mouth? Or who maketh the dumb, or deaf or the seeing, or the blind? Have not I the Lord?
Isa. 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Ecc 1:13
. . .an experience of evil has God given to the sons of man. . .
Isa. 54:16
I created the waster to destroy
Prov. 16:4
The Lord has made . . . the wicked for the day of evil.
After all:
Isaiah 26:9
When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. (that means everybody)
In other words: Christ will eventually save the homosexuals as well as everybody else.
Joe, you might be interested in bibletruths.com. (if web pages aren't allowed than feel free to delete it)
Luke, That's interesting
Luke,
That's interesting that you brought up the idea of biological significance (i.e. the 'usefulness' of certain sexual behavior that promotes us as a species). That raises another aspect of this issue outside of the moral correctness of the issue (of which I'm sure Richard Dawkins would be thrilled).
So what is better for the human species? I believe the argument could be made either way. The most obvious is without a man and a woman, there is no procreation and thus no 'contribution' (another individual) to the species. On the other hand, with the earth reaching near capacity populations, it might behoove us to decrease our increasing population.
I'm not arguing for either of these above scenarios, however I would just like to raise the issue of homosexuality and its biological effect on humanity.
As a disclaimer, this topic, like all the others discussed on this forum, is multifaceted. By staying away from morality in this post, I am by no means attempting to depreciate its value and/or its relevance to the issue. I am merely speaking to a different aspect.
Daniel, I apologize for not
Daniel, I apologize for not posting your earlier comment. Even though I share your view on "free will," I thought that the post might lead to an endless back-and-forth on predestination and detract from the subject in this thread. If you saved what you wrote and want to resubmit it, I'll post it.
Now I've probably got Vera mad at me because she sent a long one on sanctification that I didn't allow. :)
Also, I may have accidentally deleted a couple of comments because I get a ton of trash that I have to clean up daily (dozens per day). That's what I get for putting "sexual" in the title.
Stronzo, I am curious to
Stronzo,
I am curious to know if you are prepared to accept the implications of your own statement.
You stated, "This world is made better for the differences among us rather than the similarities."
Are you prepared to accept that other people who are "different" make the world better? I'm not talking about skin color, hair color, etc. I'm talking about not only the murderers and rapists you mention yourself, but also pedophiles. These people are "different" too; do you think the world is better because they exist also? If no, then you cannot make that claim; where would you draw the line and why? If yes, please explain the logical path to that conclusion.
I would also like to know how you can say that people who don't agree with you are "bigots", yet say that our differences are "good". If you really think that differences are good, why are you complaining about people who think "differently" than you, if we think "similarly" would that not be bad?
Back to homosexuality and genetics...I think that people's personalities (and even their desires) are definitely affected by genetics.
I see that society has trained men to act certain ways, and women to act certain ways (and have established "stereotypes" of both's interests, behaviors, etc.). When one's personality crosses the line that society has drawn, they are seen to be homosexual. However, I believe that these personalities and desires can be satisfied by members of the opposite sex (evidence provided by this study that shows that both sexes have cross-overs- "feminine" men can find "masculine" women and vice versa). Since homosexuality does not seem to have any progressive function for the human species (if anything, it seems to have negative effects), the responsible choice would be to pursue a member of the opposite sex, who can satisfy the needs and compliment the personality.
I want to get something straight here; I am NOT saying that homosexuals should be mistreated, hated, or even shunned because of their choices. Like all people who make the wrong choice, they should be loved and provided a safe environment to get back on the right track.
Genetics studies are great and provide many insights into how we "work". However, I don't think that these studies should be used to promote behaviors and decisions that are harmful or provide no function to the species. What will we do when geneticists discover a "rape" gene or a "pedophilia" gene? (Pedophilia and homosexuality are both sexual behaviors; they are not unrelated.)
Earlier, I had scripturally
Earlier, I had scripturally answered both Luke and Daniel Foleys posts that were addressed to me. It seems that my post was not accepted. It had everything to do with the topic. And it answered those two with scripture. Are you against everything that opposes orthodox christianity? Why do some get to write foolish, unscriptural heresy, and those who correct it with scripture are denied a voice? Get real!!
Stronzo, I appreciate your
Stronzo,
I appreciate your comments and hope you stick around.
Not all the posters here are willing to discount genetic factors in determining sexual orientation, as you suggest. That's why we're having this conversation.
Let's see what others say.
Sorry that I haven't updated
Sorry that I haven't updated the comments lately. I was out of town for a while.
If yours did not get posted, it could be that I thought it took us away from the subject at hand. I hate doing that, especially since you put a lot of time and effort into the comments (and even long lists of Bible verses to back your claims).
Perhaps it is unfair to put
Perhaps it is unfair to put the act of rape or promiscuity into a parallel with homosexuality, but, could it be, they both fall under a category of the pursuit of selfish gratification.
How do we establish limits if we are going to educate the public that one has little control over his sexual desire and preferences?
One cannot put the act of
One cannot put the act of rape or promiscuity into a parallel with homosexuality. There is a lot of rape and promiscuity going on in the heterosexual world as well. It can be connected, but it is a different matter than genetics making one homosexual or not.
Down syndrome, schizophrenia
Down syndrome, schizophrenia and many other disorders are natural as well. Does that make them normal?
This thread reads like bigot
This thread reads like bigot central.
Why would you equate a biological predisposition to homosexuality with "rape" and "murder". Why not compare a biological (genetic) predisposition to homosexuality with hair color or eye color of being left-handed.
What is it that threatens you so about homosexuality that all posters here appear ready and willing to discount all genetics in human behavior as negative if they indicate one's sexual orientation is preordained?
There are plenty of heterosexuals to populate the planet.
This world is made better for the differences among us rather than the similarities. And for the record? Being gay isn't a "lifestyle" nick. A "lifestyle" is living on the French Riviera.
Being gay is a sexual orientation.
There is obviously a natural
There is obviously a natural biological purpose to sexual behavior. My reason can make sense of this purpose, it gives meaning and underlying rationale to the behavior. It helps define limits and responsibility, purpose and design.
I cannot grasp the purpose and rationale for homosexual behavior outside of a pursuit of personal gratification or emotional satisfaction. How do you put logic and reason to play when you are dealing with emotions and feelings? To me this makes it almost impossible to impose limitations or boundaries to the behavior, since any such attempt would be purely the product of personal feelings. So this appears to me as just another attempt by man to define reality by his emotions and feelings rather than by reason and logic.
I don’t know how you educate children about values, honor, respect and self-restraint while teaching them they are defined by, and should be free to pursue, their selfish preferences no matter where it takes them? Think about what is being taught; does anyone really think implying that our children have no control over their sexual preferences or desire, is going to lead to virtuous behavior and good choices? What’s more important, honor and respect, or the pursuit of selfish gratification?
If we abandon the reason and logic, which results from defining the sexual behavior in terms of its biological purpose, we risk destroying the very foundation for our society and its family support structure. I am convinced there are serious consequences if we go down this road, the Bible is merrily warning us of those consequences. It‘s not so much dictating morality, as it is educating and warning us of the consequences of our pursuit of selfish gratification. By that I mean, truth is what it is, it is defined by God, not man.
Of the same-sex couplings in
Of the same-sex couplings in the wild, it is premature to conclude a biological cause for being that same-sex couples cannot reproduce, the gene(s) causing such expressions would have been deleted from the pool eons ago.
As for the so called similarity of male homosexual brains and female brains, this is nothing new. Such studies were done years ago over this same topic. The best studies determining the genetic contribution to same-sex attractions are those that look at identical twins and homosexual outcomes. Many studies have been done in this area and the best ones demonstrate that genes have little to do with it. One recent study with a very large sample found a concordance rate of only about 11 percent; that is in only about 11 percent of the cases where one twin was homosexual, the other sibling was also homosexaul. Nothing can be more demonstrative than this. This latest study was in agreement with many other such studies.
As for brain research, the fact is that brain neuro tissue 'evolves' (for lack of a better word) with behavior. Behavior preceeds and causes many changes in brain structure. An individual 'wires' himself according to what he does. This is why brain research is tenuous at best when it comes to explaining all behaviors in terms of the brain. Studies of the brains of hard-core criminals have found differing structures when compared to those of non-criminals. Studies of neuro tissues of rats have been found to contain differing structures in certain areas according to differing behavioral patterns. Trying to reduce homosexuality to differing brain structures and paths is an approach riddled with flaws and suspect conclusions. Identical twin studies offer the best results.
When one reads Nick's
When one reads Nick's comments about the wholesale rape of young boys and teens, and the perpetration of a perverse lifestyle, the first thing that comes to mind is Catholic priests. I'm guessing that isn't what Nick meant, but his post strays into the realm of pedophilia, which differs vastly from homosexuality, but evidence shows is quite common among the priesthood.
What annoys me is when
What annoys me is when homosexuals compare the discrimination they suffer with the persecution suffered by other racial minorities in the past.
Homosexuals can't reproduce so they can't populate a country. Racial minorities are in that minority status due to accidents of history and geography but homosexuals are a minority in the same way that blind people or the mentally retarded are a minority.
Reply to Luke's comments: I
Reply to Luke's comments:
I agree with your definitions, however, when it comes to the "psychological" part of bio-psycho-social development I would not limit psychological development strictly to cognitive functions. Psychological development encompasses how we interpret the world around us, from our relationships to our own behaviors and much, much more. I think that biological, psychological, social development are all intimately related and affect one another in a circular way, which in turn affects the type of people we become. I could say much more about this and how it relates to homosexual development but that would take too long. Suffice to say that bio-psycho-social development is very complex and not fully understood and one area of development influences the other and vice versa.
You asked:
"Are you saying that sexual orientation is determined after the bio-psycho-social development process is complete?"
I don't think that this developmental process is ever complete. The things that we think as adults change the physical and chemical structure of the brain which in turn either reinforces or challenges current feelings, behaviors and thoughts. We are always developing toward something.
During childhood the foundation of development is laid and the basic concept of self is formed; as we mature sexuality becomes part of that development. Sexuality influences and shapes development but is also influenced and shaped by earlier development (or lack thereof) that takes place during the younger years.
You asked:
"If this [bio-psycho-social development] accurately describes homosexual orientation, it follows that it must also apply to heterosexual orientation. Do you agree or disagree? Why?"
Yes, I agree, bio-psycho-social development is responsible for both heterosexual and homosexual orientation. When we are born we are not blank slates, we have certain needs that are universal to all human beings. We need love, to be touched, to be taught, to have relationships and many other things. How we interpret the way these needs were or were not met has a huge implication on how we develop, whether sexually or emotionally etc. It is not only what happens to a person while growing up but also and more importantly, how those events are interpreted. How all of this specifically relates to sexual development is not entirely known. What is important to note is that homosexuality will only develop under a small set of circumstances when a small set of predispositions are present.
From what I have read there seems to be somewhat of a consensus among conservative scholars. They think that what is really important for sexual development is the need of a child to relate to and identify with members of the same sex. Boys need to relate to and identify with their fathers and with other boys in order take on a masculine identity. The same with girls, they need to identify with their mothers and other girls. If this does not happen then homosexuality will be the result. How and why this identification does or does not take place is a result of complex bio-psycho-social interactions.
I mentioned in my previous post that people do not choose their sexual orientation.
You asked:
? "Are you talking about all people here or just heterosexuals?"
I am talking about all people. Sexual orientation is not a choice. I think that homosexuality is the result when certain psycho-social needs are not met in childhood; it is a disruption of normal development and growth.
You then asked:
"Is this discovery made after the bio-psycho-social development is complete?"
I think that sexuality is discovered during the process and influences the process and is influenced by the process as a result of earlier development or lack thereof.
I hope this answers your questions and serves as further clarification.
Joe, I believe that if we
Joe,
I believe that if we look carefully, we can see that God not only condemns the act of homosexuality but the effeminate acts of men that participate in this.
(caps for emphasis)
1 Cor. 6:9-11 says this, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of themselves with mankind (HOMOSEXUALS), Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."
I noticed you like the NIV. This is one of the main reasons I prefer the KJV and the original text. The word translated effeminate in the KJV is the word malakos which means soft, soft to the touch or metaphorically in a bad sense effeminate. It does speak of male prostitution but not in the American sense of the word. In that day, no girl is out there paying a man to have sex with her. This is clearly men with men and since the verse already speaks against homosexuality, this is clearly talking about a man being soft and effeminate like a girl.
Very interestingly, in these types of relationships there appears to always be a girlish type man. Rarely do you see two manly men engaging in homosexuality. The natural urge for a woman is there being met in an unnatural way. God condemns both.
These effeminate men seem to find their way into Christian leadership which is yet another atrocity. God likes manly men and womanly women.
I think for that reason that it is possible that sin alters our physical being in a way that is scientifically proven as opposed to suggesting that the person is naturally that way. Drunkards also have an altered state in their DNA that they can pass down to other generations if I am not mistaken. This is how our iniquities are passed to our children. But we do not have to choose to sin. A person with a propensity to sin can be set free from that. The temptation to sin is not sin. Jesus had plenty of that in His lineage and the Word says that He suffered being tempted but through the power of the Spirit, He lived a perfectly righteous life. In the same way, God can set us free from sin.
We are designed in many ways for human physical intimacy. I heard RTB say once how complicated the sharing of genetic material is. It is true. Technically speaking, we could have been more closely to the animals that only engage in this a few times a year at best. God designed sex to be this powerful interaction that makes two people become one in spirit, soul and body. We become one flesh in a way that nothing else can. In fact, the act of intercourse is by far one of the most compelling evidences for a Designer than almost any other human quality.
I heard the podcast by Fuz Rana on vestigial organs in particular the male nipple. If you look more closely, you will realize that those are all a part of the design to bring about this very heightened moment to bring about this oneness.
From wikipedia (three different articles):
However, the erection of nipples is not due to erectile tissue, but due to the contraction of smooth muscle under the control of the autonomic nervous system.
The ANS (autonomic nervous system) has far reaching effects, including: heart rate, digestion, respiration rate, salivation, perspiration, diameter of the pupils, micturition (the discharge of urine), and sexual arousal.
The nipple and areola of males and females can be erotic receptors, or considered sex organs. Stimulation or sexual arousal can cause the nipples to become erect, due to the release of the polypeptide neurotransmitter oxytocin.
It is God's heart for this. Sex wasn't created after the fall. If that doesn't fit our homogenized view of God, then we need to rethink our thinking. What He hates is when we pervert the act of sex to include fornication, adultery, lust, pornography, homosexuality, lesbianism because we are creating a distortion of this wonderful beautiful design that God has given to us. With fornication, we ultimately walk away taking a part of someone else with us. Sex is meant for two people plus God to become a cord of three strands that is not easily broken. There are body parts that appear to be outside of a Designer until one begins to realize that God created the acts of intimacy so that the two could become one. That climatic moment is of His design. You cannot reach that kind of unity by any other means. Homosexuality is a perversion of all that is good that God created. But thank God that He is still in the redeeming business and anyone can be set free from sin.
Vera
Whatever the genetics turn
Whatever the genetics turn out to be, it will never excuse the wholesale rape of young boys and teens in the name of some gene. Yet that is what is happening to perpetrate this perverse lifestyle. What does that have to do with brains?
Someguy, You bring up some
Someguy,
You bring up some very good points. I would like some clarification on a few things, though.
I’m assuming that “bio-psycho-social” in your post can be redefined accurately as “genetics-cognitive faculties-environment” and:
Genetics: Genes that dictate physical attributes, such as brain structure
Cognitive Faculties: Ability to think logically and make sound choices
Environment: Home life, friends (both, before and after age 18)
Would you agree with my redefinitions? If not, why not? (the rest of my post assumes that you do, if you don’t I will use your explanation to reformulate it)
You said, “sexual orientation is a complex interaction of bio-psycho-social development.” Two questions:
You said, “…you did not choose to become attracted to members of the opposite sex, you just are. It was something you discovered, not something you chose.”
I agree completely with you about what is needed in the Church. The Church should show love to homosexuals the same way we show love to alcoholics, adulterers, etc. The Church should provide a safe harbor for those willing to take the necessary steps to overcome their sin, no matter what the sin is.
If genetics does not solely dictate sexual orientation, is it naïve of people to believe that homosexual orientation (or alcoholism, for that matter) could be overcome by the person choosing to change their environment? If so, the Church’s efforts are in vain. If not, the person DOES have a choice.
One sure proof that
One sure proof that homosexuality is not solely based on genetics is studies that have been done on identical twins. Identical twins are genetically identical, yet when one twin is homosexual the other has about a 50% chance of becoming homosexual. If homosexuality is purely genetic then when one twin is homosexual the other twin must be as well, but this is not the case. Such a high rate of homosexuality among identical twins may be due in large part to shared environmental factors.
A recent article in the scientific journal "Archives of Sexual Behavior" (which sampled over 3,000 identical twins) indicates that genetics play a somewhat minor role in homosexuality--what is far more important is environmental factors.
What is certain is that people do NOT choose their sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is a complex interaction of bio-psycho-social development. Think about it, you did not choose to become attracted to members of the opposite sex, you just are. It was something you discovered, not something you chose. What is a choice is what you do with your sexuality. A person can choose to obey God or not.
What is needed in the church is love, kindness, compassion and understanding for those struggling with same-sex attraction. We must love them as we would any other person struggling with sin (and aren't we all), just as Jesus did and does. We love them and call them to holiness just as we would any other person. We love them whether they respond to Christ or not. We speak the truth in love. We stand for truth, in love. Remember, Christ died for the homosexual too.
This is in response to
This is in response to Daniel Brodhead. God gave them over to these lusts because they have free will. They chose that lifestyle so God let them have it. God isn't in control of what we do as individuals. We make our own choices. Or there wouldn't have been a point in creating us in the first place. God created us all to be righteous but it is our choice to accept that or not. And it is fact that there will be people who will ultimately deny Him. God did not create anyone to be a homosexual. People are created perfectly but inherit the sin of this world because we are merely human. As JC said, some of us may be more prone to certain sins than others, possibly due to experience or maybe some other factor. To say that God creates homosexuals would be to insinuate God creates evil. Evil is something of this world and God hates evil. Of course you can free will yourself out of anything. But, obviously you can not do it with out the help of God and it has to be on His terms and His terms only. Sins can be inherited. When sin inherited the earth, it took over everything about it. This means what we can get from our parents. No one is innocent of it. But just because we may have a biological defect does not merit the entertaining of that defect. If a friend of yours was born with a biological defect that gave him thoughts of murdering innocent people and he thought of carrying them out, would you not intervene in his situation and do all you can to lead him in the right direction? If we just "leave it alone" and expect people to find God on their own we are only fooling ourselves. We are meant to be fishers of men. All great fishermen do all they can to catch a fish. They don't just sit back and see what happens.
Daniel Broadhead, If someone
Daniel Broadhead,
If someone has been hardwired to be homosexual (and all homosexuals exhibit this hardwiring- as implied by your statements) then how can one explain how some homosexuals convert to heterosexuality?
Also, if God has ordained certain people to be homosexual "until the day they die" and we can identify these people (via brain scans), should we ignore them when it comes to evangelizing? If so, should we re-condemn all homosexuals who converted to heterosexuality and Christianity back to Hell's fire?
Jesse,
You bring up a good idea for a future study. There would need to be brain scans performed before and after the conversion from homosexuality to heterosexuality. If the scans are different, natural factors, such as environment, could account for the change (which would need to be studied and ruled out before demonic effects would be considered); however, if the scans are the same, then there really is very little evidence for biology having an effect on sexuality.
NV Gallagher,
Do you think that your brother's environment forced him into homosexuality or do you think he made a choice based on his environment? Do you think there is the possibility that he may convert to heterosexuality? Why or why not?
Taylor,
Good point. It would be nice to know how long these individuals have considered themselves homosexual. Do you happen to know if the speed or intensity of brain changes have any correlation to the length or intensity of exposure to a particular environment?
Everyone,
I really think there needs to be a lot more study done on this subject before strong conclusions can be accepted. I think that we should make hypotheses and suggest how they may be tested.
I happen to believe that sexuality is ultimately a choice. In my previous comment I suggested a study that I think would lead closer to either verifying or falsifying my hypothesis.
It would be interesting to
It would be interesting to read the paper. One has to wonder if the brain activity is because of genetics or a "forced change" because of lifestyle. Brain activity can change over time because of the lifestyle of an individual. Sure the article says, "'[Our] data are more difficult to explain by a specific learned behavior related to … sexual orientation'" but that does not really create an argument. Sounds like blowing off a valid question.
I agree with what "Ryan Jaroncyk" says and do not want to reiterate. About the "gay" animals. Raising a baby chick together does not necessarily mean they are "gay" but could easily be explained by lack of females. All of the other cited animals do not have lifestyle that is purely homosexual otherwise their lines would not continue. "Animal lust" for pleasure might more easily explain their actions, which is "natural" but not necessarily something good.
My brother is gay. He is
My brother is gay. He is gay not because of biological reasons, but because of how he was raised. I am eight years older than he. Our mother was beat up by her brothers and her father encouraged his three sons to be rough and he thought it ok for her to be rough. My mother raised my brother to be non-agressive. She would not allow him to strike out in any way, from the time he was born on. At one point she attempted to dress him like a girl for halloween. Our Mother was excessively overbearing, just like all of my brother's friends' Mothers. This is a problem of society and has been throughout history. I think it is more a problem today because our schools and society promote the lifestyle. My brother was considered normal in school, by the staff , and his classmates tormented him. It would have been surprising if he had turned out normal.
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