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Genetic Basis for Sexual Orientation? (cont'd)

Based on comments in previous posts, many of you maintain that despite a genetic predisposition (which science has not yet demonstrated), the Bible adjures us to overcome our sinful desires. The argument is that we are more than the product of our genes. Adultery, fornication, and drunkenness are choices, not merely predispositions. After all, scientists can probably find a genetic basis for every kind of sinful behavior. As some of you noted, evidently the brain changes can occur after established (willful) behavior patterns.

Here are several points by way of a counterargument. Please note that this is not RTB’s nor Average Joe’s argument.

  1. If a person has known only same-sex attraction for as long as he can remember, then either it’s genetic or the person had no control over environmental factors, or both. The choice to orient toward the same sex, then, is not theirs.
  2. The categorization of homosexual desire with adultery, fornication, drunkenness, and the like seems ill-suited for the characteristic alone. Abuses of homosexuality (as in promiscuity, rape, pedophilia) should be condemned, not the orientation per se. That is, adultery and fornication find their legitimate expression in monogamous heterosexual marriage. Drunkenness finds its legitimate expression in moderate drinking (and science seems to indicate that a glass of red wine each day may prolong life). Could homosexuality find its legitimate expression in some way (though I’m not sure what that might be)?
  3. Instead of seeing people as freaks for divulging a secret homosexual desire, why not come down harder on abuses of heterosexual behavior? As an example, how many not-yet-married Christian couples take vacations together?
  4. Could it be that objective scientific investigation of the causes for homosexuality are relatively new—perhaps a matter of decades—and therefore one should suspend judgment until solid data emerges?

Sorry if some of you are tired of this subject. We’ll move on to something else soon, but given the significance of the issue, it might be worth another round of discussion. Thanks.

Comments

I am unclear how

I am unclear how homosexuality could be genetic. If there were a "gay gene," it would reproduce itself less frequently than the general population, and would therefore become an ever-increasingly small percentage of the gene pool.

This Average Joe will be

This Average Joe will be away from a computer for four or five days, so if you leave a comment, it won't get moderated until then. Sorry. Perhaps the good news (for some) is that we'll move on to another topic shortly after I return.

Thanks.

For what it’s worth here

For what it’s worth here are my responses to the points in question:

1: I am of the opinion that a person has control over how he responds to his environment and has more control over his body’s chemistry and emotional urges than willing to admit. Whatever environment we are placed in gives us unique opportunities to serve God.

2: I think the spirit of the law should prevail over the letter of the law. From this perspective I don’t see the purpose of the Bible to be a legal textbook of do’s and don’t’s to hit people over the head with. For me, the evil of homosexuality lies in it’s selfishness which is in direct conflict with love. Nevertheless, I don’t see where I have the insight to judge the hearts of anyone, God knows I have my own selfish issues to deal with, consequently, I leave all judgment to God’s Grace.

  1. I don’t see homosexuals as freaks. I don’t see any difference between people in pursuit of selfish sexual gratification, regardless of their sexual preference, and those who abuse drugs, or alcohol. I agree Christianity should oppose all such behavior.

  2. Human’s selfish nature is what it is and has been since that point when Adam and Eve decided they could determine right and wrong for themselves and their unquestioned trust in God was broken. Some foolishly see science as an instrument to proclaim man’s glory, I see it as a tool to proclaim God’s.

The possibility of a genetic

The possibility of a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality has been alluded to here but not discussed in any detail. Vera raises the very interesting issue of whether deviant sexual behavior might itself lead to genetic change (which could then predispose towards further deviant behavior). Until recently I had not seen any evidence that our behavior might effect our DNA, but it now seems that this is possible. Perhaps then if someone does have a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality it may be because either they or their progenitors have behaved in such a way as to develop such genes. Whatever the reason, there is an effective route to salvation from such things.

What about the larger

What about the larger societal issues and historical influence on civilization? I am surprised that classic Greek culture (as well as others) has not come up in these conversations. I am not an expert, but I believe that, for all their great learning, homosexuality was not only common, but was given some kind of special sanction despite its recognized destructive effects both on the boys growing up there and on the society at large. I also understand that contemporary homosexuals draw from that era, especially the mythology, rites, secret sculptures and practices that went with it as a source for their own cultural lifestyle. This would seem to go well beyond genetic predispositions. New Testament writers, living in the midst of it, have much to say that we should heed. After all, they were there.

There are just a couple of

There are just a couple of Scriptures that are perhaps pertinent to your discussion.

One is Romans 1:24, "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: and Romans 1:26, "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: "

What is God doing though that would cause someone to feel free to give into their lusts? How does God "give them up?"

I believe there is a measure of grace in the world that came with the Law. Romans 5:20, "Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:." Grace is the virtue of God poured out into our hearts at salvation but it is also a power that keeps us from being out of control. Paul explains the dilemma that comes with the Law in Romans 7. Yet interestingly, he claims to have walked blamelessly in the righteousness of the Law prior to being saved (Phil 3:6) as did Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:6). Then in Romans 8, he speaks of what it is like to be led of the Spirit which transcends the Law. We now have a righteousness that is better than the old because it is by faith. And now we have the fullness of God through His Spirit with some serious dynamis or power.

If I am reading this correctly, God withdraws his grace from this individual who exalts man and is not grateful so that they are free from righteousness. Romans 6:20, "For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness." To this person, to sin in this very unnatural way seems natural because there is absolutely nothing holding him back anymore. He has no inclination any longer to be righteous. Common sense tells you that the act is not natural or according to the design that we uniquely possess.

2 Thess 2:7 says, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." Could this be the Spirit of grace that keeps us from doing things we wouldn't do naturally. Once that is taken out of the way on a grander scale, could this usher in the "great tribulation?"

Could these events affect DNA and physical attributes of people? I believe it can. "Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Romans 1:27 (NIV) I believe receiving this in themselves is in terms of the physical and emotional degradation that occurs from this type of sexual activity. I don't know how this might affect a future generation--being that our sins are passed to our children--but I know from experience that we can be set free from sin.

Bro Mike, Please see Jude 22-23 on types of witnessing. Many blessings, Vera

Environmental factors that

Environmental factors that are out of the control of persons is a topic that would be subsumed under the general topic of "the problem of evil".

However, any child growing in any human society sees males and females in the role of husband and wife, and should see sexuality as the domain of heterosexual relationships. So when anyone attempts to be homosexual, they KNOW that they are going AGAINST what is considered the norm within the human and animal world (genes, predisposition, inclination, experience etc. notwithstanding).

Drunkenness and adultery are degrees of excess within the same characteristic, whereas homosexuality is a qualititively different (deviant) activity within normal sexuality.

In an "ideal" heterosexual relationship, the act of sex is supposed to bring both man and woman, emotionally and physically together with eye contact playing a significant and meaningful role. However, with anal sex, the eyes are averted, there is a lack of emotional contact and the focus is on the physical pleasure. There is a quality of mutual exploitation even between "consenting" homosexuals, similar to a one night stand between a drunken heterosexual couple. There is no focus on what is best for the other person and instead a selfish desire is fulfilled.

Freedom of the individual is paramount in western societies. This freedom is enjoyed but the responsibilities toward the same society that grants these freedoms are not taken seriously. A society thrives only if its longevity is assured, and its senior members are looked after by the active population, which necessitates a constant replenishment of the population. Homosexuality threatens the institution of heterosexual marriage that guarantees procreation and population replenishment by emphasizing the selfish pleasure aspects of sex to the detriment of procreation. It undermines the long-term marriage commitment necessary for providing the ideal environment for the growing children by promoting adulterous behaviour and divorce. It also promotes a dependence on the state for child rearing and a diminished role for the family.

A father "figure" and a mother "figure" is what is wanted by society, not necessarily a "married" couple. Common law couples are immoral but not "anti-societal".

I'm not sure I agree with

I'm not sure I agree with the manner in which this was argued. The "choice to orient" is not the sin - the act of homosexuality is the sin. I also contend with extracting homosexual relations from the abuses of sex. Let's face it, can you think of a "legitimate expression" for bestiality or sex with a child? All forms of sexual expressions other than the loving sexual relationship between a wife and a husband are deviations from God's command. I may or may not have a choice in my orientation but I do have a choice in what I elect to do with my body. We can either honor God and do what is in step with Scripture or not. I do believe that we have no right and no room in Christian love to judge one sin as more loathsome than another. We have no room to point to Scripture if we turn our heads on fornication and condemn homosexuality. A gentle and kind spirit will do more to bring someone to truth than harsh and lopsided judgmentalism.


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